TDB Classic remolding time
- Thread starter Tony H
- Start date
MLBob Furia
Well-known member
Tony, I have a 6-gallon tank that sits in the rear well. Fits with plenty of room to spare. When I have need to use a Q-type beam, I use one of the rechargeable models. I also have the battery powered, clip-on style running lights if I need to run in the dark (which I no longer have the need to do very much of due to the "banker's hours" flexibility retirement affords me ;-)). If I did need a battery (and I have carried one in the past), or if someone would be running an electric start motor on their classic, I feel there is plenty of room right below either side-shelf right in front of the rear bulkhead to easiy accomodate one out of the way.. Hope you can make it down to see the actual boat and we can talk furtherabout how I've used it (decoy bags, gear, seats, blind top, etc.)
with having the 14 tdb and 17 tdb classics both do tend to stuff the bow in high chop when coming down a wave and trying to pick bow up with more throttle to much weight to front puts bow into front wave causing water to come up tocombing and sometimes into boat. i have found that moving second person to middle of cockpit on 14 is fine with just anchor ,line and box of misc. on shelf she rides fine(18 hp tohatsu and 6 gallon fuel in back) . the same with the 17 moving 2to center ( 40 tohatsu 6 gallon in back) to much weight forward with that bow shape runs bow threw the wave not riding up it. i would think about wt of 9 gallon tank in bow and with the 4stroke motors they seam to be very fuelish. they run farther on 3 gallon then 2 stroke on 6 gallon. good luck with the boat, rick
Thats why were asking! what may sound logically to me may not be the best answer and when it comes from owners who have hunted from the boats for years what better way to learn and gain knowledge.
Thanks again.
The great thing is right now we can do many different things and insuring room for a fuel tank in the back seems like a must. Our only concern with that is a bilge pump in the bilge area? Thoughts? need or not need a bilge pump?
tony where floor liner drops to drain plug that box down ward holds water to keep floor pretty dry(wet dog or wet waders), with gas tank in transom bilge pump is a liitle high sticking up,if float pods in back were wider on 14 tank goes long way in just off centerfor bilge pump but could be hit and break ,more room tankoff center one side and small battery other. i carry bilge pump in that front box with clips on leads. the 17 has no problem in back lots a room. when i got boat from clarks the drain plug had chain to transom board so you just pulled at ramp and let hang.i really enjoy the boats very useful year round boats (fishing small or big water) hope this helped ,rick
Okay Gang we have just finished the design work for the 14 classic floor liner. You will note its 3 colors.
the raw fiberglass is smooth, the tan is textured and the green is where we will embed the name. The Duck Boat into the liner mold.
This will go into the hull and be glassed in with 6" fiberglass tape assuring a completely watertight seal. Under it will be Floatation foam aproximately 2.5 cubic feet that does 2 things. Provides structural support for the floor and also is floatation that we can remove from the Stern bulkheads to free up more room.
The Raised Triangular area in the bottom of the second picture will be the Bilge area under the stern. It will drop about 1.5" and this is where we were concerned with a bilge pump but I believe we have solved that problem with making another modification to the Rear foam chambers in the stern. We will simply raise those off the floor and put them into the decking since we will have a foamed floor now.
The tan on the sides is the cockpit area where the hunters will be and the rectangle below is an area that is 14.5x22 which represents the fuel tank area.
Note the holes in it are for when we have to fill the open area underneith with foam later.
Stay tuned tomorrow we wax and spray it up and build one.
This will be the last pictures we post on this thread. We will start a new thread with the whole process so far when we get the liner built and ready to install. Stay tuned everyone. Still a few bugs to work out but were well on our way.
the raw fiberglass is smooth, the tan is textured and the green is where we will embed the name. The Duck Boat into the liner mold.
This will go into the hull and be glassed in with 6" fiberglass tape assuring a completely watertight seal. Under it will be Floatation foam aproximately 2.5 cubic feet that does 2 things. Provides structural support for the floor and also is floatation that we can remove from the Stern bulkheads to free up more room.
The Raised Triangular area in the bottom of the second picture will be the Bilge area under the stern. It will drop about 1.5" and this is where we were concerned with a bilge pump but I believe we have solved that problem with making another modification to the Rear foam chambers in the stern. We will simply raise those off the floor and put them into the decking since we will have a foamed floor now.
The tan on the sides is the cockpit area where the hunters will be and the rectangle below is an area that is 14.5x22 which represents the fuel tank area.
Note the holes in it are for when we have to fill the open area underneith with foam later.
Stay tuned tomorrow we wax and spray it up and build one.
This will be the last pictures we post on this thread. We will start a new thread with the whole process so far when we get the liner built and ready to install. Stay tuned everyone. Still a few bugs to work out but were well on our way.
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Tony
I don't fully know the flotation configuration of that boat but any mention of putting foam flotation under the floor raises a big red flag for me. If I were a builder I would make darn certain my boat had three point flotation (the nose and each rear corner). Relying on flotation under the floor, i.e. below the water line is fraught with problems including water intrusion and saturation of the foam (I don't care how waterproof you think it is water will find a way in over time) and the physics of a swamped boat with a low center of buoyancy and high center of gravity (foam under floor lowers Cb, fiberglass top raises the Cg) greatly increases the odds of a swamped boat capsizing which is an operators/passengers worst nightmare in frigid water. Jim Cripe of Outlaw designed his hull with foam under the floor and it came as no surprise that one of his boats capsized in rough seas killing four on Saginaw Bay (See link below). My sincerest advice is to completely abandon the foam under the floor idea and focus on maximizing safety and make that a selling point. Outlaw went out of business and had a lot of legal trouble. Don't be an Outlaw.
Safety should be the first consideration, not storage.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19951121&id=BoVXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1PEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6480,38836
Thanks for bringing this up, when I read it I thought the same thing, but wasn't feeling like pissing in anyone's wheaties at the time (I must be getting soft). I agree about the 3 point and under floor foam. I flat out woudl not buy a boat with foam under the floor for 2 reasons. First, propensity for the boats to turtle when swamped. Second, foam under the floor seems to always absorb water over time (it may not be this year, but sometime it will - wet foam is almost a universal when you start reading rehab threads on older glass boats).
Eric and Tod, I have considered this issue with the wet foam issues with boats and from my research and data it generally results in an inferior foam being used or mixed improperly. There is great debate on Foams and testing due to the CG regulations regarding it.
One thing I know is just about every fiberglass boat manufactured has foam in the floor. Because there is no where else to put it in most boats. As for duck boats I cannot speak for others but I'm guessing even they use foam in the floors and the key is a sealed compartment and using the proper foam and mixing it properly if its poured in. The best foam out there is 100% waterproof but it comes in blocks and can be cut to fit.
We continue to strive for using only the best materials and using them in the proper ways. The 14ft classic many won't realize but have wood floors in them, another thing people claim are problems in boats but infact these boats are one of the best ever built and no one denies that fact. The Maine built TDB's that is and while I cannot say for sure how many and what years for sure I do know they had wood cored floors in them. Balsa Core was used in them. So while guys will freak out at the word wood in a boats construction fact is its usually not the woods fault if it fails. It comes down to how the boats are built and the wood is sealed and protected. Same with foam.
Now I am sure with the newer composite materials in todays world while Balsa is still considered one of the best ever and continues to be used by manufacturers and has a proven record of many many years unlike newer composite materials people still frown on the thought of wood being used in fiberglass boat construction.
Everything relies on the construction of the boats and the manufacturer doing it right. Eric, if you own a fiberglass boat odds are great that it has foam under the floor. And if its been properly built and the owner(s) properly cared for it the foam may still be in great shape as well. If its not there is a reason for that. And ussually the reason is simple. Drainage. The water has to be able to get out. The foam will NOT absorb the water if it can escape rather than be forced into the foam.
Design of the hull and foam placement. Water if ever intruding the space must have a clear way to drain to the keel and then to the bilge.
properly sealed with fiberglass during manufacturing.
The foam MUST be properly installed and mixed so its 100%. Incorrect mixtures will fail.
We are building a classic with the floor liner and will see how it works out. We may also build one using a cored floor just as was done in Maine as well. Here is the biggest difference. PRICE!
By making molds for the floors, bulkheads, shelves etc we can save lots of labor hrs and costs of materials. Core is EXPENSIVE. If we must hand build every floor, bulkheads and shelf then core them the cost of materials and labor will be much higher.
The end product done either way can be the same and look cleaner and smoother by using molded parts.
The floor is the only concern with regards to the floatation foam however we have considered the design and will insure the foam if ever gets water in it will drain to the boats keel and out to the bilge without any problems.
Eric I want to touch on your comment regarding the foam in the floor having an effect on the boats stability. This simply isn't true, By adding a liner and the foam we will most likely come in heavier by weight than a boat with only a cored floor. Meaning we have more weight in the bottom of the boat. And the 3pt foam will still be used. There will be foam in both sides of the transom, under the shelves, in the bow and even in the underside of the cockpit opening ring.
One thing I can assure you. Our boats will be tested and certified by the USCG and exceed there minimums.
Thank you Eric and Tod for the comments we take everyone of them seriously and hope we have already thought them through and have researched them enough to make the right decissions. And we thank everyone of you here who are involved in this process.
Foam and Wood are NOT the bad guys in boat building. Its how they are used, prepared and sealed in the manufacturing process.
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Scott Farris
Well-known member
Tony,
Please clear up what appears to be conflicting statements, you plan on sealing the foam under the floor but you will make sure any water drains to the keel. I very much like the drain to the keel as long as the transom drain plug is below the floor drain. This is the case with my Lund and after 10+ years it's still dry as the boat is kept out of the water with the plug out.
Scott
Please clear up what appears to be conflicting statements, you plan on sealing the foam under the floor but you will make sure any water drains to the keel. I very much like the drain to the keel as long as the transom drain plug is below the floor drain. This is the case with my Lund and after 10+ years it's still dry as the boat is kept out of the water with the plug out.
Scott
Scott, remember were working through this as we go. And we love having input here and think its of great value. Now let me try to clarify for you. Again I am not the greatest with typing words and making sure they say what I want to say. LOL
the floor liner will be 100% sealed. It has 3" flanges that fit against the hull sides and fit perfectly to the hull in the bow. These flanges will be glassed with a putty(glue) when the liner is installed then covered with 6" fiberglass tape. The only way for water to enter will be user error from drilling a hole into it somewhere and not properly sealing it or manufacturer issue.
What is meant by the keel and drain is that incase of moisture building inside or something there will be no stringers to prevent the water from moving to the keel of the boat. This is where most systems fail. stringers with no drains or very tiny drain holes that get clogged up and do not permit water to pass. This water then becomes trapped and is eventually absorbed by the old foam.
By using the foam as the stringer system it will do 2 things. Allow for support of the floor liner and eliminate the need for stringers that can trap water.
Now you do bring a valid point about water escaping the sealed liner. And I haven't considered that because its going to be sealed so water cannot get into it without one of 2 things. A failed liner installation which would be manufacturer issue or user error drilling holes into it.
I guess a drain plug could be placed into the floor liner if needed to drain water if it is needed. But I am quite confident its not going to leak unless someone drills holes in it.
The big thing is people are quick to blame the foam and or wood for absorbing water. When its almost always user error. I have redone a dozen Starcraft deep v's and everyone of them is because the drains are clogged with leaves or other junk. And these are NOT sealed systems the stringers are designed with little drains in the corners to allow water to flow through to the keel and then out to the bilge area. Problem is boats get full of dirt, weeds, fishing sinkers, etc etc etc and many are left out in the weather and improperly covered and well the foam and or wood gets water logged and they blame the wood and foam.
Its simple. Take care of the boat, properly maintain it and store it and both the foam and wood won't be an issue.
Its all about the design system and proper maintanance.
I believe that Other duck boats are completely full of foam. they have a hull a liner mold and then foam is filling the gap inbetween the 2 fiberglass parts the liner and hull. The system seems to be working great for them and many other major boat builders today. The key is proper foam mixing and pouring and NOT breaking the seal to permit water into the sealed chambers full of foam.
We would love nothing more than to leave the TDB classic boats as they were built 20 years ago but lets be honest material costs and labor is atleast double if not more. Hell resin costs have doubled in 8 years now, the only way to keep costs down is to use other designs and molding to eliminate all the extra costs of materials and labor hrs and this is our first attempt at doing so. I am confident it will work so far. I will know more once the liner is built and installed, sealed and foamed. If it doesnt work as planned we try something else.
And this is why we want people involved and commenting. There is no wrong questions or answers at this point and we welcome all of them.
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David Robinson
Well-known member
Well said Tony. I applaud your transparency and willingness to share the details of boat building! This is why I love this site and I dream of boats. It is evident that we have a great group of smart people here and I truly feel that everyone is looking out for each other. Good luck and keep the posts coming.
David, it would not be in our best interest to ignore those who own or have owned a TDB. Lets face it the Original Maine built boats were the best. The boats that were built by the Clark Brothers and Gerry the man behind the scenes done it right. Everything made by these guys were top knotch and that leaves us with very large shoes to fill.
We plan to do our very best in doing just that. We have a few secret weapons in the arsenal that should insure that we accomplish doing just that. Bringing the TDB line back and built as good the boats the Clark Brothers and Gerry designed and built for many years.
And with all the help we are getting via phone, email and through this site we will have no excuse if we fail. We chose to make this site a part of the TDB resurrection simply because this site if full of not only owners of the boats but many many great boat builders and people here who have some sore of interest in the company if none other than the fact it is the Original Duck Boat.
We were amazed and extremely proud we were able to make the purchase and call the company ours.
Stay tuned we made a little progress today by laying up the liner placing it into the hull putting the deck on and test fitting all 3 pieces. We have decided Foam under the liner is not the answer. I just dont trust the foam in the floor and know someone will drill holes into the liner to mount something sooner or later and that means problems. So next step is to try and design a grid style stringer system for under the floor made from all fiberglass. This could set us back a week or so in its designing and creation. Wish us luck. LOL
With over 5000 page views of this thread it just proves there is a vast amount of interest in the resurrection of the TDB. And will plan to keep everyone updated as often as we can with current info and possibly some more questions and opinions so keep them coming.
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tony just a thought on floor. the original tdb floor is flat across, when decoy placed down sides they jump all over(decoy bags and shelf bags came later) the boat in a bad chop. i am thinking of running a raised center floor with a decoy gutter down sides. i have done this on the boat i build. i used pbc pipe cut in half glassed to hull, running bow to transom. the floor deck is molded to ht. of pipe with sides to mate hull. i am up out of water on floor and the decoy gutters (step down to hull) allow water to run to transom pocket. this is tyed to front shelf making hull strong ( no flex) running down like ex. stakes on other boats but inside just athought, rick
Okay another update, We are going to build a grid style stringer system out of PVC pipe and make a mold from the stringer system so that we can have a complete Fiberglass stringer in the hull of the boat. This stringer is being built from PVC because radii creates strength and we will be able to achieve high strength with little weight. This will probably set up back a week designing the system and testing it.
The plan is to create the stringer system, Then core the floor liner with 3/8" Gurit PET core material.
Then we will place the floatation foam in the Bow, Stern, under the shelves and in the deck rim area as well. We figure we will need aproximately 11cu.ft. of Floatation foam based on our preliminary weight calculations and HP.
We are strongly considering not one set of shelves but 2 on each side approximately 1ft between them. The foam will be placed under the Top set if shelves at minimum and possibly under both sets of shelves to create not only floatation but also strength in the sides and the shelves.
The new TDB Classic should be bullet proof when we get it all done like we want.
As stated before by keeping foam out from under the floor we eliminate that potential worry of it getting waterlogged and also eliminate that potential for a boyancy issue. Again thanks everyone for your thoughts that made us stop and think and make some phone calls.
Keep them coming.
BTW. we have the hull and deck put together and the liner placed in the boat and all looks great so far. Now we just gotta build the stringers. This will save costs later because we will cut the core materials cost in half doing it this way making a stringer mold.
Thoughts?
The plan is to create the stringer system, Then core the floor liner with 3/8" Gurit PET core material.
Then we will place the floatation foam in the Bow, Stern, under the shelves and in the deck rim area as well. We figure we will need aproximately 11cu.ft. of Floatation foam based on our preliminary weight calculations and HP.
We are strongly considering not one set of shelves but 2 on each side approximately 1ft between them. The foam will be placed under the Top set if shelves at minimum and possibly under both sets of shelves to create not only floatation but also strength in the sides and the shelves.
The new TDB Classic should be bullet proof when we get it all done like we want.
As stated before by keeping foam out from under the floor we eliminate that potential worry of it getting waterlogged and also eliminate that potential for a boyancy issue. Again thanks everyone for your thoughts that made us stop and think and make some phone calls.
Keep them coming.
BTW. we have the hull and deck put together and the liner placed in the boat and all looks great so far. Now we just gotta build the stringers. This will save costs later because we will cut the core materials cost in half doing it this way making a stringer mold.
Thoughts?